In 2020, “defund the police” was everywhere. Now, even politicians like AOC and Zohran Mamdani have turned around on it. But some proposals that fell under the defund umbrella, like unarmed crisis responders and violence prevention programs, actually took hold. Gene talks with Chenjerai Kumanyika, journalism professor and creator of the Empire City podcast about the history of the NYPD. They dig into why politicians will say “abolish ICE” but not “defund the police,” and whether the public is more ready to rethink policing than the people running for office think they are.


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